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Souza v. City of Antioch4/30/1997
cing, and Schneider tried to convince him that they would not be that serious because he had not fired the gun. Schneider told him no matter what happened, it was not the end of the world. To this, Joel responded that it was the end of the world for him. Then, Schneider heard a new sound. Nicholas explained that they were using the exercise bike.
At this, Schneider urged Nicholas to have Joel listen to how they could surrender so no one got hurt. Nicholas said they were listening, and Schneider explained that Joel would dress in shorts without a shirt. At Joel's knock, Schneider would ask him to put just his hands out the door so they could be seen. When he did this, Schneider promised he would approach the door to meet him, then walk him downstairs to where he could make phone calls. Schneider said he would not handcuff him in front of the children, and he would give them some time together downstairs.
It was around noon. Nicholas told Schneider they understood and that they needed a few minutes to get dressed. Schneider urged Nicholas to come out as he was, but Nicholas said there was a couch in front of the door. Schneider could see Nicholas under the door trying to move the couch and turning the door handle. Joel called that he could not find a pair of shorts, and Schneider told him to leave on the pants he wore, but to take off his shirt.
After a few more minutes, Nicholas told Schneider they were talking and saying their good-byes because they knew they would not see each other for a long time. Then, Joel could be heard vomiting. Nicholas explained to Schneider that his father had gotten sick and needed time to recover. The children were trying to comfort and clean him up. Joel said it was hard without water. At 12:22, Schneider said he would bring a wet towel if they would allow him into the room. Joel responded that he needed a few more minutes.
Schneider relented, then tried again. Nicholas said his dad still was not feeling very good. Schneider reminded Nicholas of the promise to his grandmother. Nicholas said he remembered, but they needed a few more minutes. Schneider heard the exercise bicycle again. Cheri called that her father was not feeling very good, and needed a back rub.
At 12:50 p.m., Schneider asked again when they were coming out, and Nicholas said they would be out "in just a minute." When Schneider responded, "you said that before," Nicholas told him to "give us a break." At that time, Nicholas "started spouting off things that his father had told him about [the APD] . . . disrespecting us as police and as adults." Schneider grew irritated because Nicholas was being "sassy," and did not seem to appreciate how serious the situation was.
Schneider, Conklin, and Keller conferred briefly at the foot of the stairs. Keller, who had some training in hostage negotiation, ordered Schneider to "give him 10 minutes." Schneider had never used a deadline in a hostage situation before. He had been instructed over 13 years of hostage negotiation training that "time deadlines were to be avoided." He had been taught "not to push the issue to a critical point; to use time as an ally; [that a] person's physiological needs are necessitated by time and can work in your favor; those types of things." Schneider was not comfortable giving Joel the deadline because he did not think it was appropriate at that time. He did not argue with Keller though he thought it was a mistake. And at 12:58 p.m., Schneider conveyed the ultimatum to Joel because, in his words, "[Keller]'s a Captain and I'm an officer."
Upon hearing the deadline, Joel asked Schneider, "Why are you playing so hard now?" Schneider explained that he had been orde
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